:-)
— Thijs 
Mark you got the facts wrong. You won’t say so here, but you did. Trying to blame me for it is a weak coverup. I wrote about this today on Scripting News.
“To Mark Pilgrim and Jeffrey Zeldman, both of whom wrote publicly and critically about me last week, clearly without checking the facts, I am not running UserLand (as I’ve said many times on this page). I quit after my heart surgery last summer, on doctor’s advice. I am now a fellow at Berkman Center at Harvard University, where my job is to help people start weblogs. I can’t tell them what browser to use, nor would they listen if I did. They mostly use MSIE, a few use Netscape 4, I haven’t seen any Opera’s or Mozilla’s. Yet somehow our sites have to look good in all these browsers, and they use CSS, as much as they possibly can. I put a break tag and a blockquote in the default theme to work around a bug in MSIE. The problem I was ranting about was about the relationship between people like me and designers like you. I was saying you guys stopped listening and stopped caring. Your rants proved my point, more eloquently than I possibly could have. You were ranting about someone else, not me. I am using CSS. I gave up the battle a long time ago. Now you guys listen carefully — it’s past time for you to give up the battle too.”
Good luck.
You know Dave, if you have a history of heart problems you should really try to relax a little more. Yes, I’m being snarky, but it’s still good advice.
Thanks for the advice Damelon. I hope for your sake you really meant it in a kind way. BTW, there’s no “if” about it. My great grandfather died of a heart attack at 42, and my great uncle had his first at 46 and died at 66, and my grandmother died of it at 66. Guess whose genes I got. Bad joke, but real. And that is why I left UserLand and went into academia. And why your advice might be taken to heart by Mark — instead of blaming *me* for *his* problems, he might take responsibility for them, and take the high road. I’ve asked him elsewhere why he dragged RSS into it, what did RSS do to him to deserve being so slimed. He hasn’t responded to that yet. I look forward to hearing a good joke about that, maybe at someone else’s expense this time.
Great job on entirely missing the point there, Dave.
Right now, nobody cares about UserLand, or Harvard blogs, or webbrowsers. While those are exciting subjects too, this one is, essentially, about your track record of personal abuse.
— Tomas
“Yet somehow our sites have to look good in all these browsers, and they use CSS, as much as they possibly can.”
From my (admittedly limited) experience with Userland products and sites, they don’t use CSS as much as possible. Most of them are a horrible mix of tag soup, presentational mark-up and the odd scrap of CSS thrown in.
As for Winer Numbers, I’m taking a huge hit at the namespace document (http://www.vkps.co.uk/Public/EWN/ ). So, I’ll say what Mark has already said: only use it in self-defence.
And Dave, please stop being abusive to people. It’ll do you, your image, your heart and the web a world of good. :)
— GaryF
Mark is creating his own track record of personal abuse as well, which is really disappointing to see. I think I started reading this blog just when it was getting really popular. Since then there’s been a slow decline into arrogance, self-indulgence, and nastiness to others. Mark, you can date the beginning of the downfall to the first time you used the term “A-list blogger.”
— Jeremy
Mark, you really need to find yourself a lighthouse or something.
— Sam Ruby
“Dang, I’ve dug a pretty deep hole now. What do I do now? I know! I’ll dig my way out!”
- Attributed to the thought process of Dave Winer.
It’s unfortunate that the winerlog has been knocked off the air for a while…
— Ben Dyer
Yea, I’ve been what happened to winerlog. Eventually I’m going to have to remove it from my bookmarks.
— Anonymous
Peace, y’all. I dunno, life’s too short.
Play nice…
— Tim
One thing that I always wondered is why Dave Winer doesn’t allow comments on his weblog.
I guess it makes sense – can you imagine the number of flames that he would receive every day for each piece of garbage and self-indulging entries he posts in there ?
— Anonymous
I think Tim’s comment is the best — this is getting out of hand, here and in my comments, though I appreciate you bringing this discussion here rather than in my comments, Mark.
However: Mark, Dave, can both of you think of taking a break this weekend, respective corners, calm down a bit. Please?
When playing a solo, Yngwie Malmsteen – to whom I’ve never heretofore given much thought – seems to divide into two people: one with hands on the guitar, the other looking incredulously down at what those hands are doing.
Cancellation of a feedback loop does not occur at an uncontrolled source but rather at the controlled source. If you stop flaming others will stop as well in their own time.
— Lou
Mark, I think your honeymoon is coming at about the right time. You need to unwind and let go.
Seems to me that email is a private matter between you, Sam, and Dave. Why publish it here?
Claude commented on this yesterday — http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/01/css_tabs_redux.html#c001643 — and I agree: accepted netiquette is that private email stays that way unless explicit permission is given for publication.
— James Kew
what a tempest in a teapot! mark has definitely been getting snarkier, and dave does pick some fights.
i thought dave’s post about css a week or so ago was a good example of what he himself terms “stop energy.”
and i thought zeldman’s post was remarkably gentlemanly and generous, clearly trying not to come across as a flame (though maybe his “enough already” type heading gave that impression).
mark used to seem more balanced too.
maybe separating ego postures from debate points is as difficult as separating presentation from semantic content?
— xian
Take up tai chi.
— Anonymous
I take umbrage to the suggestion that I used to be more balanced. I have always been arrogant and self-indulgent. Read my earliest posts if you don’t believe me.
http://diveintomark.org/archives/2001/07/
Being on the “A-list” (gag) just magnifies personality traits, it doesn’t create new ones out of thin air.
I shall now take Sam’s advice and hole up in a nearby lighthouse for the weekend.
— Mark
I dunno Dave, I already admitted I was being snarky with my response. Let me try it this way. The whole “Winer Number” thing seems to be a direct response to an (apparently) observable trait in your exchanges in the electronic ether. It resonated with enough people that now it seems to be creating a problem for you. So my question to you is: do you think the tack you are taking is going to correct that for you or are you just aggravating you condition unnecessarily? More directly, do you think this will go away quicker complaining about it or ignoring it?
Yea with all due respect Mark it does seem pretty inappropriate to publish private email like this. For the sake of all I do hope that both Dave and Sam gave you permission to publish this.
(I have no Winer number)
Clearly, Mark Pilgrim is not God.
I’m disappointed, of course, but I’ll get over it.
That said, we could all learn from his response to criticism.
— sleeper
The rest of the world is apparently not smart enough for Dave Winer, which would be well and good if he stayed in a cave all the time and kept his mouth shut.
But clearly he’s aware of his tendency to piss other smart people off, since he at least attempts to adopt a different persona for his personal “marketing venue”, Scripting News.
Somehow I doubt tht Hahvad would have been interested in making him a Fellow if they were party to every critical remark, every blow up, every condescension, every rant, rave and personal attack, that Dave Winer has launched over the years.
Its too bad, really. Most folks want others to win. When a community turns on one of its own, it means something.
DW: King of “Stop Energy” [(c) Dave Winer] to be sure.
— S.T.F.U.
Boys, I don’t care WHO started it. If you two don’t stop it, I’m going to pull this car over and finish it.
OR
While turning the other cheek never hurt anyone, but God only gave us four cheeks to turn.
My EWN is around .05 and falling. Pretty soon I’ll be able to pass a Dave-alyzer test.
I’m not really sure why any of us have put up with this for all these years. Was there an upside? Pretty tough to find one, I think.
— exhausted
“Boys, I don’t care WHO started it. If you two don’t stop it, I’m going to pull this car over and finish it.”
I totally agree.
Enough with this shit. You’re grown men, not 12-year-old girls.
Mark, kudos to letting Dave rebut you on your own blog (I’ll assume you didn’t edit his remarks). Dave, you really ought to switch to some blogging software that allows comments and integrated searching.
(ducks)
For what it’s worth (try posting to a lynch mob with your name on it sometime) Mark did not ask for nor get permission to post my email here. On the other hand I didn’t put NOT FOR PUBLICATION on it, as I sometimes do.
That said, I think you all are missing the point totally. Mark nailed me and RSS for something stupid, not something stupid that I did, but something stupid that HE DID. He doesn’t have the guts to own up to it now. He’s got a few nasty people who post here, these people do more abuse than they receive, and they like to pick on me because I’m public and I’m often around places where they can. This is one of the tragedies of the XML workspace.
That thoughtful people like Christian Crumlish take part in this is very depressing. Just shows that even good people will join a mob if they feel attracted to it. Shame on you Christian. There was no stop energy in my post. It was a story. It wasn’t about stopping anything.
I’m going back to my birthday now, I hope you all find enough mercy in your hearts to let this rest. I’m sick of how selfish so many of you are.
Finally, people are starting to see the big picture. It’s not merely about the technology, it’s about being honest and forthright.
It’s become apparent that Dave has completely blinded himself to his abberance. That and he’s completely unrepentant for the suffering and disruption his abuse has and continues to cause.
No, instead he turns around and abuses the people further while trying to present some false sense of victimhood. It’s classic behavior, objectionable and abusive in the clearest sense. The reaching here; guilt by association, innuendo, false piety, reproachment, is nothing short of staggering.
That thoughtful people come out and offer honest comments should be a telling sign Dave. They want your abusive behavior to cease and they’re no longer content to remain silent about it. They no longer fear your on-going campaigns of censorship and threats. They will not cower from your bullying tactics. They understand they’re not alone and they’re not going to take it anymore.
You lie Dave. Most significantly you lie to YOURSELF.
How about YOU start apologizing to people, putting their feelings first for a change, doing some basic research into what you post about, and recognize criticism has a constructive side that’s not meant to feed your paranoia?
People certainly respect many facets of your abilities Dave, but you’ve really stretched our tolerance with your abusive behavior.
We do indeed feel sorry for you and sincerely hope you find help in changing your abusive ways.
After the last comment it may seem a little cruel to add my tuppence but I can’t help it.
What’s the big deal? I don’t get it. Admittedly, I’m new to the idea of web publishing/journals having just joined the fray 3 months ago. I had no background in HTML or CSS and since I use MovType it became a prerequisite to learn some. I like to ‘tweak’ and I’m still learning.
I have no idea what my website looks like in Netscape 4 (what percentage of webusers still use it?) or any version of IE on Windows because I’m a narrow minded Mac user. Call me blissfully ignorant, but it just makes sense to learn the ‘current’ webstandards being utilised by the most modern browsers. I know this hurts the ‘aesthetics’ of the site for users who do browse with older software, but there’s not much I can do about it without owning a PC and playing in Windows. I’m not that serious. I concluded that if my CSS are CSS2 compliant and my XHTML is valid, wherever possible, then it’ll be OK.
I have no answers because I’m a neophyte, just a view from an recent ‘outsider’ with my face stuck to the window.
— gummi
I completely disavow any mob gangpile on Dave. I think the people who make a habit of slamming him (usually behind cowardly pseudonyms) reflect much more ill on themselves than they do on him.
Thus, I really don’t feel that I was ganging up (I appreciate that Dave considers me to be usually thoughtful) when I spilled out some of the thoughts I’ve had recently since the original “trunk/ketchup/tie” post. This may not have been the appropriate forum or context for those comments, and I absolutely did not mean to cause hurt feelings or stir up further ill will.
While it may be true that Dave does not recognize the times when he has given offense, I also think the Winer Number idea was fairly cruel, and certainly more likely to increase the flak both ways than to tamp it down.
I stand by my point that Zeldman, while clearly disagreeing with Dave, did not seem to be flaming him at all. To wit, he says things like:
“Mr Winer has for years written prolifically on his personal sites, and in so doing has encouraged others to create personal sites and blogs, thus fostering aspects of the web’s independent content movement and helping to create a friendly climate not only for his company’s products but also for competitive publishing tools including Blogger and Movable Type.”
and
“Mr Winer’s positive influence on web publishing and web development cannot be overstated.”
“His actions speak louder than his words, and his actions command our respect.”
and
“Mr Winer, whom we respect…”
To me this is not flaming. It is public argument, which is one of the many legitimate vehicles for our weblogs.
(I also thought JWZ’s long CSS thread – pointed to in another recent diveintomark post) did a pretty good job of tweaking the great Zeldman on his nose. It may have been mean-spirited in the same sense that I am decrying here, though, even as it made me laugh.)
I haven’t followed any RSS argument between Mark and Dave at all for some time now, so I have no idea who has given offense in that arena.
I guess I’m blathering on like this because it seems that I gave a more hurtful impression than I meant to convey, and that’s not how I like to conduct myself in public. I’m willing to extend my hand in apology to anyone who feels hurt by my words. I believe that compassion is the beginning of understanding.
This all reminds me of Usenet, where every time a person annoyed others even more annoying people would be drawn to the flamewar and tend to make everything worse. (I think that also answers the commenter who ask why Dave has no – or the other one who demand’s that Dave add a – comments feature to his weblog.)
— xian
I’m tired of the whining regarding who “invented” RSS, or blogging or the combustion engine for that matter.
RSS is nothing more than a pre-defined set of elements in an XML file. That’s it. Sure, a lot of work was put into getting people to use it, settling on standards, etc. But wasn’t the real work already done?
It’s like me telling people I invented chicken when serving them my favorite chicken pot pie recipe.
— Anonymous
Joe G
12 year old girls would never do this. Neither would grown women.
Wow.
The telling comment here, from a number of people, is “we aren’t afraid of speaking up”.
Not any more.
— S.T.F.U.
Burningbird, you’ve never seen women get into a pissing match? I have.
— xian
Jeeeeeeeeeeez guys…..
When I wanted to learn XML/XSL there were a number of resources I used. Dave was one of them and Mark was one of them. I enjoyed and learned from both resources. But their software backgrounds are different. Dave for many years was a developer and a business man. Both hats don’t fit well on one head and are always competing for space. It can be very stressful. Mark is an innovator, thats the camp I fall into. I love the XML/CSS generated layout with XSLT. I have learned so much from both. The Weiner number thing is funny….Dave learn to laugh at yourself.
Not everything is serious. You are not abusive you stand up for what you believe so does Mark. Now kiss and make up!
— Don
xian: Burningbird diffused an obviously sexist statement. Read some Gloria Steinem for further enlightenment.
— 3
Who’s David Winer?
Under the category of what our parents would say … “I don’t care who’s fault it is, I’ll knock both your heads together” … usually kept my brother and I from totally annihilating one another.
As for David Winer. I’ll tell you, when N.Z.Bear was emailing various A list members regarding his WMDI initiative, he included Mr.Winer … who replied with a very terse reply which said to the effect “been there, done that, don’t bother me.”
Now my point in bringing this up is not to say Mark is right and Dave is wrong, nor is it to pile-in on Dave. Merely it is to point out that those of us further down the food chain do have feelings so it might do Dave, Mark and other A-listers some good to take the edge of their responses.
A good example is Vincent Flanders, who you would think would take every opportunity to tell someone they suck. But quite the opposite. I have communicated with dozens of individuals who’ve exchanged email with him … and in return received helpful and humane responses.
Now I realize you guys on the A list are busy. So I don’t mind a terse response. Nor do I mind a polite response letting me know you’re really busy. I guess what I’m saying is that some of the bad blood I’m looking at above may be a result more of rudeness towards one another than this or that person not admitting they are right or wrong.
All that said — Mark’s responses to me have also been terse, but never rude nor belittling.
Girls, girls, girls! I’m just so weepingly grateful that all us shy retiring flowers have this lovely forum where we can emotionally bond against the wild ways of that big strong hairy brute. Ooo, he’s so bold and rough and ready. And the way he talks to well-bred ladies like us! I swear, I can barely code a comma after hearing it! I come over all hot and flushed and bothered. Ravaged I feel! Ravaged and flushed to my flower-like core! Girls, as bosom companions, if you want to confess in more intimate terms about the way in which the bold manner of that wicked Mr Winer actually secretly excites you in a most unladylike manner, please contribute. I myself am fanning my pale vulnerable body as I type…
— Hortensia Clampett
3: Burningbird defused an obviously sexist statement with an equally sexist retort. Don’t assume I’m not a feminist or haven’t read Steinem, let alone Sontag, Friedan, Greer, de Beauvoir, McCarthy, etc.
— xian
Yo Hortensia, it’s not about being frail lillies — but we have choices. We can either spend all our time flaming each other, being snippy, rude, what have you — or instead take an extra step to make the blogsphere something truly incredible by showing some mutual respect. Even for us lowly worms.
I myself can’t tell RSS from a hole in the ground, but I do note this recent comment on Scripting News:
“MacRumors confirms that iTunes is coming for Windows. I was going to explain that Windows users generally don’t care about Apple software for Windows, it usually sucks bigtime, but then I decided to avoid the flames, I have a busy day so never mind.”
http://scriptingnews.userland.com/2003/04/30#When:3:35:16AM
Well, gee, thanks for sparing us. I was going to explain that comments like this one are deeply hurtful to people who actually work on these products, but I have a busy day so never mind.
— Anonymous